Topic of Hell - Perish or Forever

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Topic of Hell - Perish or Forever

Post by CptJacktheripper » Fri May 05, 2017 10:33 pm

Last year I began working for a new company and its a christian mostly employee base. But a good majority of them are seventh day adventist. Some how the topic came up and I said I would dedicate some time to research it further. In hell after we die a death here on earth if you were to go to hell would you burn forever or burn up one time and perish essentially?

So i did a two month about 20 hours research on this and came up with this. Let me know if anyone has any points for either side.

Hell - Temporary or Forever?

Hard Concept
How can a loving and gentle God allow such torment?
Soft Concept
Degree of inflicted pain
Such as how long and if any at all

Source or reason of study ... hell--pt-1

Bible Talk video statements as fact
Hell is real
Hell is hot
Hell happens at the end of time
The fire has a purpose
Lost people go into hell
Wages of sin is death
Scripture has two deaths
All people die
After final judgement you have a second death which is hell fire
Not even the devil will burn forever and ever
God didn't design evil to exist
Rationality is if the devil exists in some form of lockdown it would create fear and thus is the reason why that supports God wouldn't design a hell to burn someone forever
Hell consumes those in it to ashes
Wipe of evil and sin from the face of the earth

These are the verses they mentioned either in full or in short for a reference stand point. The three in bold they mentioned as their solid foundation for their belief or point of view spoken in the audio I listened to from the website given to me.
Bible Talk scriptural references to support statements
3 Verses in Bold were given during the audio and the other verses were mentioned throughout the audio
Matthew 10:28
28 Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

2 Peter 2:6
6 if he condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah by burning them to ashes, and made them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly;

Ezekiel 18:32
32 For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign Lord. Repent and live!

Matthew 5:30
30 And if your right hand causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to go into hell.

Malachi 4
Judgment and Covenant Renewal
4 [a]“Surely the day is coming; it will burn like a furnace. All the arrogant and every evildoer will be stubble, and the day that is coming will set them on fire,” says the Lord Almighty. “Not a root or a branch will be left to them. 2 But for you who revere my name, the sun of righteousness will rise with healing in its rays. And you will go out and frolic like well-fed calves. 3 Then you will trample on the wicked; they will be ashes under the soles of your feet on the day when I act,” says the Lord Almighty.
4 “Remember the law of my servant Moses, the decrees and laws I gave him at Horeb for all Israel.
5 “See, I will send the prophet Elijah to you before that great and dreadful day of the Lord comes. 6 He will turn the hearts of the parents to their children, and the hearts of the children to their parents; or else I will come and strike the land with total destruction.”

1 Jude, a servant of Jesus Christ and a brother of James,
To those who have been called, who are loved in God the Father and kept for[a] Jesus Christ:
2 Mercy, peace and love be yours in abundance.
The Sin and Doom of Ungodly People
3 Dear friends, although I was very eager to write to you about the salvation we share, I felt compelled to write and urge you to contend for the faith that was once for all entrusted to God’s holy people. 4 For certain individuals whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord.
5 Though you already know all this, I want to remind you that the Lord[c]at one time delivered his people out of Egypt, but later destroyed those who did not believe. 6 And the angels who did not keep their positions of authority but abandoned their proper dwelling—these he has kept in darkness, bound with everlasting chains for judgment on the great Day.7 In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding townsgave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.
8 In the very same way, on the strength of their dreams these ungodly people pollute their own bodies, reject authority and heap abuse on celestial beings. 9 But even the archangel Michael, when he was disputing with the devil about the body of Moses, did not himself dare to condemn him for slander but said, “The Lord rebuke you!”[d] 10 Yet these people slander whatever they do not understand, and the very things they do understand by instinct—as irrational animals do—will destroy them.
11 Woe to them! They have taken the way of Cain; they have rushed for profit into Balaam’s error; they have been destroyed in Korah’s rebellion.
12 These people are blemishes at your love feasts, eating with you without the slightest qualm—shepherds who feed only themselves. They are clouds without rain, blown along by the wind; autumn trees, without fruit and uprooted—twice dead. 13 They are wild waves of the sea,foaming up their shame; wandering stars, for whom blackest darkness has been reserved forever.
14 Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about them: “See, the Lord is coming with thousands upon thousands of his holy ones 15 to judge everyone, and to convict all of them of all the ungodly acts they have committed in their ungodliness, and of all the defiant words ungodly sinners have spoken against him.”[e] 16 These people are grumblers and faultfinders; they follow their own evil desires; they boastabout themselves and flatter others for their own advantage.
A Call to Persevere
17 But, dear friends, remember what the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ foretold. 18 They said to you, “In the last times there will be scoffers who will follow their own ungodly desires.” 19 These are the people who divide you, who follow mere natural instincts and do not have the Spirit.
20 But you, dear friends, by building yourselves up in your most holy faith and praying in the Holy Spirit, 21 keep yourselves in God’s love as you wait for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to bring you to eternal life.
22 Be merciful to those who doubt; 23 save others by snatching them from the fire; to others show mercy, mixed with fear—hating even the clothing stained by corrupted flesh.[f]
24 To him who is able to keep you from stumbling and to present you before his glorious presence without fault and with great joy— 25 to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.

2 Peter 2:6
6 if he condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah by burning them to ashes, and made them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly;

Ezekiel 28
A Prophecy Against the King of Tyre
28 The word of the Lord came to me: 2 “Son of man, say to the ruler of Tyre, ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord says:

“‘In the pride of your heart
you say, “I am a god;
I sit on the throne of a god
in the heart of the seas.”
But you are a mere mortal and not a god,
though you think you are as wise as a god.
3 Are you wiser than Daniel[a]?
Is no secret hidden from you?
4 By your wisdom and understanding
you have gained wealth for yourself
and amassed gold and silver
in your treasuries.
5 By your great skill in trading
you have increased your wealth,
and because of your wealth
your heart has grown proud.

6 “‘Therefore this is what the Sovereign Lord says:

“‘Because you think you are wise,
as wise as a god,
7 I am going to bring foreigners against you,
the most ruthless of nations;
they will draw their swords against your beauty and wisdom
and pierce your shining splendor.
8 They will bring you down to the pit,
and you will die a violent death
in the heart of the seas.
9 Will you then say, “I am a god,”
in the presence of those who kill you?
You will be but a mortal, not a god,
in the hands of those who slay you.
10 You will die the death of the uncircumcised
at the hands of foreigners.

I have spoken, declares the Sovereign Lord.’”
11 The word of the Lord came to me: 12 “Son of man, take up a lament concerning the king of Tyre and say to him: ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord says:

“‘You were the seal of perfection,
full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.
13 You were in Eden,
the garden of God;
every precious stone adorned you:
carnelian, chrysolite and emerald,
topaz, onyx and jasper,
lapis lazuli, turquoise and beryl.
Your settings and mountings[c] were made of gold;
on the day you were created they were prepared.
14 You were anointed as a guardian cherub,
for so I ordained you.
You were on the holy mount of God;
you walked among the fiery stones.
15 You were blameless in your ways
from the day you were created
till wickedness was found in you.
16 Through your widespread trade
you were filled with violence,
and you sinned.
So I drove you in disgrace from the mount of God,
and I expelled you, guardian cherub,
from among the fiery stones.
17 Your heart became proud
on account of your beauty,
and you corrupted your wisdom
because of your splendor.
So I threw you to the earth;
I made a spectacle of you before kings.
18 By your many sins and dishonest trade
you have desecrated your sanctuaries.
So I made a fire come out from you,
and it consumed you,
and I reduced you to ashes on the ground
in the sight of all who were watching.
19 All the nations who knew you
are appalled at you;
you have come to a horrible end
and will be no more.’”

A Prophecy Against Sidon
20 The word of the Lord came to me: 21 “Son of man, set your face against Sidon; prophesy against her 22 and say: ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord says:

“‘I am against you, Sidon,
and among you I will display my glory.
You will know that I am the Lord,
when I inflict punishment on you
and within you am proved to be holy.
23 I will send a plague upon you
and make blood flow in your streets.
The slain will fall within you,
with the sword against you on every side.
Then you will know that I am the Lord.

24 “‘No longer will the people of Israel have malicious neighbors who are painful briers and sharp thorns. Then they will know that I am the Sovereign Lord.
25 “‘This is what the Sovereign Lord says: When I gather the people of Israel from the nations where they have been scattered, I will be proved holy through them in the sight of the nations. Then they will live in their own land, which I gave to my servant Jacob. 26 They will live there in safety and will build houses and plant vineyards; they will live in safety when I inflict punishment on all their neighbors who maligned them. Then they will know that I am the Lord their God.’”

Revelation 21
A New Heaven and a New Earth
21 Then I saw “a new heaven and a new earth,”[a] for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea.2 I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Look! God’s dwelling place is now among the people, and he will dwell with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God. 4 ‘He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death’ or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away.”
5 He who was seated on the throne said, “I am making everything new! ”Then he said, “Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true.”
6 He said to me: “It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. To the thirsty I will give water without cost from the spring of the water of life. 7 Those who are victorious will inherit all this, and I will be their God and they will be my children. 8 But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.”
The New Jerusalem, the Bride of the Lamb
9 One of the seven angels who had the seven bowls full of the seven last plagues came and said to me, “Come, I will show you the bride, the wife of the Lamb.” 10 And he carried me away in the Spirit to a mountain great and high, and showed me the Holy City, Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God. 11 It shone with the glory of God, and its brilliance was like that of a very precious jewel, like a jasper, clear as crystal. 12 It had a great, high wall with twelve gates, and with twelve angels at the gates. On the gates were written the names of the twelve tribes of Israel. 13 There were three gates on the east, three on the north, three on the south and three on the west. 14 The wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.
15 The angel who talked with me had a measuring rod of gold to measure the city, its gates and its walls. 16 The city was laid out like a square, as long as it was wide. He measured the city with the rod and found it to be 12,000 stadia[c] in length, and as wide and high as it is long. 17 The angel measured the wall using human measurement, and it was 144 cubits[d]thick.[e] 18 The wall was made of jasper, and the city of pure gold, as pure as glass. 19 The foundations of the city walls were decorated with every kind of precious stone. The first foundation was jasper, the second sapphire, the third agate, the fourth emerald, 20 the fifth onyx, the sixth ruby, the seventh chrysolite, the eighth beryl, the ninth topaz, the tenth turquoise, the eleventh jacinth, and the twelfth amethyst.[f] 21 The twelve gates were twelve pearls, each gate made of a single pearl. The great street of the city was of gold, as pure as transparent glass.
22 I did not see a temple in the city, because the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple. 23 The city does not need the sun or the moon to shine on it, for the glory of God gives it light, and the Lamb is its lamp. 24 The nations will walk by its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their splendor into it. 25 On no day will its gates ever be shut, for there will be no night there. 26 The glory and honor of the nations will be brought into it. 27 Nothing impure will ever enter it, nor will anyone who does what is shameful or deceitful, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb’s book of life.

Revelation 22
Eden Restored
22 Then the angel showed me the river of the water of life, as clear as crystal, flowing from the throne of God and of the Lamb 2 down the middle of the great street of the city. On each side of the river stood the tree of life, bearing twelve crops of fruit, yielding its fruit every month. And the leaves of the tree are for the healing of the nations. 3 No longer will there be any curse. The throne of God and of the Lamb will be in the city, and his servants will serve him. 4 They will see his face, and his name will be on their foreheads. 5 There will be no more night. They will not need the light of a lamp or the light of the sun, for the Lord God will give them light. And they will reign for ever and ever.
John and the Angel
6 The angel said to me, “These words are trustworthy and true. The Lord, the God who inspires the prophets, sent his angel to show his servants the things that must soon take place.”
7 “Look, I am coming soon! Blessed is the one who keeps the words of the prophecy written in this scroll.”
8 I, John, am the one who heard and saw these things. And when I had heard and seen them, I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who had been showing them to me. 9 But he said to me, “Don’t do that! I am a fellow servant with you and with your fellow prophets and with all who keep the words of this scroll. Worship God!”
10 Then he told me, “Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this scroll, because the time is near. 11 Let the one who does wrong continue to do wrong; let the vile person continue to be vile; let the one who does right continue to do right; and let the holy person continue to be holy.”
Epilogue: Invitation and Warning
12 “Look, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to each person according to what they have done. 13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.
14 “Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city. 15 Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.
16 “I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you[a] this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star.”
17 The Spirit and the bride say, “Come!” And let the one who hears say, “Come!” Let the one who is thirsty come; and let the one who wishes take the free gift of the water of life.

18 I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this scroll: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to that person the plagues described in this scroll. 19 And if anyone takes words away from this scroll of prophecy, God will take away from that person any share in the tree of life and in the Holy City, which are described in this scroll.
20 He who testifies to these things says, “Yes, I am coming soon.”
Amen. Come, Lord Jesus.
21 The grace of the Lord Jesus be with God’s people. Amen.

Sinners burn forever
Hard Concept
How can a loving and gentle God allow such torment?
Soft Concept
Degree of inflicted pain

Below are the verses I searched and found.

Concept of Hell being temporary
Malachi 4:1-3 4 [a]“Surely the day is coming; it will burn like a furnace. All the arrogant and every evildoer will be stubble, and the day that is coming will set them on fire,” says the Lord Almighty. “Not a root or a branch will be left to them. 2 But for you who revere my name, the sun of righteousness will rise with healing in its rays. And you will go out and frolic like well-fed calves. 3 Then you will trample on the wicked; they will be ashes under the soles of your feet on the day when I act,” says the Lord Almighty.

Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

2 Peter 2:6 6 if he condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah by burning them to ashes, and made them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly

Concept of Hell being eternal and forever
Matthew 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
Mark 3:29 But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation.

Mark 9:43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:

Mark 9:45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:

Hebrews 6:2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.

2 Thessalonians 1:9 9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Jude 7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

Jude 12 These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots;

Jude 13 Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever.

Revelation 19:2-3 2 For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand.

3 And again they said, Alleluia and her smoke rose up for ever and ever.

Revelation 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

Matthew 3:12 & Luke 3:17 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will thoroughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

Matthew 18:8 Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire.

2 Peter 2:3 3 And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.

I believe to know whom God is will help is better understand why he chooses to do something. However this is still limited by our own definitions of the words we read. The ideas and definitions of love for instance can be shallow or deep. It is all in the eye of the beholder and or view point where we are standing when we perceive it. If we are in a time of need of love and no one is around, we may perceive love to simply be in the presence of those whom would show love towards us for any reason. Below is my commentary before, during, and after I listened to the audio clip a few times.
Biblical references to support own belief
Who is God? 1 Timothy 2:4New International Version (NIV)
Loving 4 who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.

Who is God? 1 John 4:8-10New International Version (NIV)
Loving 8 Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love. 9 This is how God showed his love among us: He sent his one and only Soninto the world that we might live through him. 10 This is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins.

Who is God? Exodus 33:19New International Version (NIV)
Merciful 19 And the Lord said, “I will cause all my goodness to pass in front of you, and I will proclaim my name, the Lord, in your presence. I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

Who is God? 1 Peter 2:3New International Version (NIV)
Good 3 now that you have tasted that the Lord is good.

Who is God? Exodus 34:6New International Version (NIV)
Compassionate 6 And he passed in front of Moses, proclaiming, “The Lord, the Lord, the compassionate and gracious God, slow to anger, abounding in love and faithfulness,
slow to anger
abounding in love

Who is God? James 5:11New International Version (NIV)
Full of compassion 11 As you know, we count as blessed those who have persevered. You have heard of Job’s perseverance and have seen what the Lord finally brought about. The Lord is full of compassion and mercy.

Who is God? Isaiah 6:3New International Version (NIV)
Holy 3 And they were calling to one another:
“Holy, holy, holy is the Lord Almighty;
the whole earth is full of his glory.”

Who is God? Revelation 4:8New International Version (NIV)
Holy 8 Each of the four living creatures had six wings and was covered with eyes all around, even under its wings. Day and night they never stop saying:

Who is God? Nehemiah 9:32-33New International Version (NIV)
Just 32 “Now therefore, our God, the great God, mighty and awesome, who keeps his covenant of love, do not let all this hardship seem trifling in your eyes—the hardship that has come on us, on our kings and leaders, on our priests and prophets, on our ancestors and all your people, from the days of the kings of Assyria until today. 33 In all that has happened to us, you have remained righteous; you have acted faithfully, while we acted wickedly.

Who is God? 2 Thessalonians 1:6New International Version (NIV)
Just 6 God is just: He will pay back trouble to those who trouble you

Who is God? Psalm 5:5-6New International Version (NIV)
Hates who does wrong 5 The arrogant cannot stand
Hates who tells lies in your presence.
You hate all who do wrong;
6 you destroy those who tell lies.
The bloodthirsty and deceitful
you, Lord, detest.

Who is God? Jeremiah 50:31New International Version (NIV)
Punishes who does wrong 31 “See, I am against you, you arrogant one,”
declares the Lord, the Lord Almighty,
“for your day has come,
the time for you to be punished.

Who is God? Ezekiel 44:12New International Version (NIV)
Punishes who does wrong 12 But because they served them in the presence of their idols and made the people of Israel fall into sin, therefore I have sworn with uplifted hand that they must bear the consequences of their sin, declares the Sovereign Lord.

Who is God? Matthew 25:46New International Version (NIV)
Determines where we go 46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

Who is God? 2 Thessalonians 1:9New International Version (NIV)
Determines where we go 9 They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might

Who is God? 2 Peter 2:9New International Version (NIV)
Determines who is punished 9 if this is so, then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from trialsand to hold the unrighteous for punishment on the day of judgment.

Who is God? Hebrews 10:29New International Version (NIV)
Determines how severe and 29 How much more severely do you think someone deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified them, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace?
talks about how severe the
punishment will be

Matthew 18:8New International Version (NIV)
8 If your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life maimed or crippled than to have two hands or two feet and be thrown into eternal fire.

Personal belief
I believe people test things against their foundation or source of ultimate truth. People have a form of testing where they take a thing whether an object, a person, a theory, a belief or anything and test it against their belief of ultimate truth. Today I intend to listen to some of the things on amazing facts website and test them against their own sources and then against my own foundation or ultimate truth and see if I am missing something that I should know or believe in.

I believe we should consider who God is / character wise. So who is God as we know him and can we learn more about Him? Does he cause harm to others, if yes what was done, why, and how do they align with his character? One thing to be very careful of here is not to exalt our judgement of what is right above God's perception of what is right and wrong when considering these things but if we disagree then let us dive in more to understand.

They mentioned 2 Peter 2:6 as a reference for burning to ashes. I presume they intend this verse to point towards a temporary punishment implying that ashes have no nerve endings and thus we would not feel anymore punishment. A question that comes to mind is how does this verse tie into the chapters meaning and who was direct at? I believe verses can be directed at us specifically for direction and guidance and there are other verses which tell us a story about the past and directions can be given to the people in those stories specifically and not us directly. I am not saying that we can't learn from those verses but i am saying those verses are not intended for us as direction or rules to follow. A great example would be sacrificing animals in the old testament. I think we can both agree this is not for us but direction for those in the story at that specific time period. A person like myself or any reader might ask themselves should I also follow that instruction given, pertaining to what they just read whatever verses that might be. I believe in order to determine this we have to think about what is being said and to whom. Most of the time it is clear whom the scripture is speaking to and sometimes it’s not. Is every verse in the bible grey and white or literal at face value? A side thought, “I wondered if those in the video read more in the bible while following the same process of thought and found a verse but it contradicted their theory or another verse would they reconsider their theory or put that part of the bible out of their mind because it didn't suit their belief that they shared with many?” Or would they like many people do blot that specific part of the bible out because it doesn't meet their own theology? To me this verse specifically directs the readers mind to consider what was done to those whom practiced evil and sin back in that time. God told the angels to destroy that city and brought it to ashes. I believe this in itself is a story that we are meant to learn from. This is what became of the wicked then and in reference to this story particularly those who teach false doctrine. I believe we can conclude to all those whom practice sin. If we are going to consider 2 Peter 2:6 then I would say we can't neglect 2 Peter 2:3 in doing so.

It is a hard concept for even myself to swallow that a loving God our father much like myself a father to my own daughter would condemn her to a never ending life of torment that to this day I still don't understand but I also can't ignore the verses simple and clear implication that it is never ending.

Most would agree violence or pain is a form of love if used with the intention of moral correction. However, it would cross a line of no return if it crosses our agreed standard which can be based on the volume, quality, quantity, and or measure of time lapsed.

Another question is why suffer at all. Can't a God who brought something from nothing also make the something from nothing to back to being nothing again such as the things that choose evil to being with.

Romans 9:20 20 No, don’t say that. Who are you, a mere human being, to argue with God? Should the thing that was created say to the one who created it, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 When a potter makes jars out of clay, doesn’t he have a right to use the same lump of clay to make one jar for decoration and another to throw garbage into? 22 In the same way, even though God has the right to show his anger and his power, he is very patient with those on whom his anger falls, who are destined for destruction.

Random thoughts / questions that came to mind as I did this
Revelation 14:9-12 Why does these verses describe those who receive the mark of the beast will burn in sulfur and the smoke will rise from their torment forever and ever if the fire is temporary?
Revelation 20:14 Someone mentioned the second death was the fire that consumes the devil and all unrepented sinners, then what is the lake of fire or sulfur and brimstone?

For me this is irrefutable however I believe we were all given the willpower and ability to choose thus we all can reason to believe or not to believe but that means this is what we accept to be and not be. I can say and believe that something doesn't exist or isn't possible and even if I see or touch said thing I can still choose to not to believe or accept it. Much like someone does when they are told a love one is dead, even if the denial is for a moment it still represents the possibility of choosing not to believe when its evidence supports their tragic death. It is said in the Bible after all the trumpets and all the signs and wonders even still some refuse to believe and come to repentance. I am by no way saying the reader of this message falls into that category but stating there is a choice behind the action which is to believe, do, say, or think which is always an option no matter the circumstances. Gun to your head do this or die? I see two options but most obviously choose life and say it’s the only option however that’s not the truth they could choose to die if under the right circumstances. Such as deny Christ and live and receive the mark of the beast or be beheaded.

Matthew 25:46 The same greek / hebrew word to describe eternal life is used to describe the eternal hell.

Someone could read all of this and say this is a crafted message to deceive because it may not line up with what they desire to believe because of not understanding how a God of love is also a God of Justice. They could very well be right and have reasons to say this is not truth. I believe you can refute one of those reasons which is the intent to deceive. You have gotten to know part of me and my heart along these past 7 months. You can choose for yourself whether or not I have crafted this to deceive and manipulated the word into something it’s not or you can consider the possibilities of what I have presented to you as a mere suggestion to invoke you to think if you so choose to do so. Many believe we are called to save the world based on Matthew 28:19-20 Jesus says, "19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: 20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen." But I believe we are not called to save the world but present the gospel to them and let them choose on their own. Discipleship requires a willing participant. Therefore, do not feel that by me showing you my research that I am somehow attempting to force you by any means. If at the end of the day we agree to disagree that is okay. To many times people, denominations, and or churches to decide to part ways because of the soft topics unrelated to salvation which ultimately is still a voluntary choice. Though it breaks my spirit and heart to see someone not choose Christ it's still their choice to make.

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